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Yes, but since our species's dawn man has always maintained a close relationship to combat (necessary to protect it's kin). Women were not open to that until sexes were defined as equal (very recently in our history).

Ever noticed how soldiers are driven to war and sailours towards the sea (at the time where it was perilous?). Some women today feel and understand our emotions regarding this, while others do not feel it because they do not need to. After all, women are also receptive to feelings we do not know, like that motherly feeling.

Most man fight because they protect (or at least are taught they protect), and if they do in this extent, they will sacrifice everything. I think this is a fulcrum of reflexes every species have been given by biology's preservation laws.

to be short, war is... complicated: the principle of combat for self preservation has been prevalent since sentient life emerged, but the principle of war became a human creation beyond simple combat: causes differ towards ideologies, beliefs, even religions which we mistakingly believe to be so important as it's worth entire lives.

We are born, like anything and everything, with a will to fight to survive. However, we mistakingly apply this to very common causes, thus giving birth to our disgust in war. which is perfectly understandable.

but if you look at it from an individual point of view, you'll find precepts worth examinating: Was it wrong to fight the 3rd reich? actually, we think not. Why? because doing so meant to stop the jew's genocide (at least that's our thinking, as there were a post of other reasons around this, political and ideological there again, which might explain partly why the french resistance didn't focuse primarily on the train tracks leading the jews to the death camps, even though jean moulin did often point this as a primary objective).
The only way to judge a war and to apply the "wrong-right" decision (which is always subject to change along with points of views) is if you take into account our society as a collective and if you choose to abide to the rule of preserving the maximum of lives possible (the less worst case scenario).

This way you'll see that combat and war science are essential. If we have an opportunity to kill someone on the street who threatens to kill 2 innocent people (er even one actually), in that case (although my opinion is not shared by quite a lot of people), I think it should be considered as your duty to protect those innocent people (possibly by killing as a last resort). Funny, when in situation of danger regarding oneself, this situation is called self defense and is much less frowned upon, yet it remains exactly the same, the only difference being the person you protected (not yourself, but others). The key is not to view those events on the personnal side, but as a collective.

Then there's the question of judgement: is that threatened person's life worth the aggressor's death? There again, I do think so: I tend to regard killers (directly or undirectly) as threats to our collective which should be eliminated (if not for us then for the others, as a precaution measure). It's not out of feelings or revenge or anything, it's just a safeguard for our species (at least I view it that way). That's a funny thing as I'm against the death penalty (despite the fact that I consider it attractive in many cases) precisely because of one argument: as long as we are not 100% sure of not commiting any mistake, it would be fine, but... You know the rest: impossible. and to risk an innocent being death sentenced would be possibly the worst crime of all.

Wow, that was long. Are you still here or have you fled the deranged psychopath? LOL
should you have other questions... Very interesting topic indeed!

Dernière modification par starlord (2008-07-18 15:10:14)

well, there was once the solution of exile (say great britain with the austrailia solution), but we are running out of places. Besides, I don't think it would be convenient to dump our trash next door: The aborigenes got endeangered because of that, and their culture proves to be one of the most interesting on earth. This can't be allowed to happen.

Perhaps what you are saying is true, frenchtouch. However, the problem is here: It obviously hasen't been solved with diplomacy during it's birth, but it must be solved nevertheless. Also, be careful: Have you ever met people whose only perpose is to harm others by any means necessary? I have, and I can tell you that you can cure people like that possibly when they do not wish to remain what they are, but what of the persons who wish that? what cure can you then give?
Also, you can just do what we are currently doing and lock up the whole lot in prisons, but we'll pay to maintain them, AND we will never contribute to make people feel secure (which is one of the dominent problems in today's society and possibly at the core of some of the violence we're experiencing). How would you like to know that a few blocks away from you is a prison in which possibly killers are residing?
those persons can become a menace for us: Nobody should want to risk loosing loved ones in order to let those persons live. If they are a threat to us, then they should be removed with extreme prejudice to save potential victims.
As for OUR bloody history, well, that's not refrained to our species: from a biologic point of view: history IS bloody (not necessarily ours): Every species will fight for it's survival: that's one of biology's principal laws. However, it is true that war has found for us another meaning, as we will fight for ideologies or revendications.

As to war, it is NOT useless: think of it as a historical component: when you study as to why wars got made then you can delve deep into how we function: you can LEARN LESSONS as to why there was a war in the first place in order not to repeat that mistake. And doing so means we evolve. Even though wars are to blame for a high level of dead, we learn after it: This is how europe got created after WW2. We grow and evolve through conflict as well as through peace. IF manking really wasn't attracted to war, then we wouldn't need legends such as the tale of the trojan war or wouldn't even consider combat as an art, so tell me why nearly every kid is amazed when he hears of the feats of hercules or ulysses and also wants to practice karate or viet wo dao? Perhaps there will be a time were we will step away from the concept of war, but certainly not now. war is perhaps not a fate (I do hope so), but nevertheless, and like it or not, it's well present in our minds right now!
Right now, the way I think most plausible would be to exorcise our warring lust into training games (which would stop us from waging real war (thus prevent bloodshed which is our real goal in all this) and drain our violence). The maori have understood that long ago with their "dances". Why not us?

Dernière modification par starlord (2008-07-24 00:05:51)

Well, I didn't read all the posts , i'm a little bit a couch potatoe ^^"
Nevertheless, i'd like to talk about Death Penatly : I think like many people that it's not a way to choose to punish crimes.
You simply CAN'T say too somebody "well, you killed someone, and to show you that it is not a thing to do, i will kill you too!"
Moreover that's too simple to kill someone knowing you will die too, but it's harder to do when you know that you'll spend all your life as a prisoner, with no liberty, no pleasure, no distractive activities, nothing but four walls and other killers...

Starlord said :If we have an opportunity to kill someone on the street who threatens to kill 2 innocent people (er even one actually), in that case (although my opinion is not shared by quite a lot of people), I think it should be considered as your duty to protect those innocent people (possibly by killing as a last resort).

Yes , you're right that's a duty to protect innocents, but everybody doesn't have the same courage as you, and there are some people that will not be able to live knowing they killed someone even if that was a murderer ....
But you're right, we should protect innocent people, even if we have to kill the person that is threatening to kill them...


Stupid idea : war should be only virtual,, like a videogame if we are forced to make the war and not the peace ^^"

Dernière modification par Vandien (2008-09-08 14:52:45)

No, Starlord, I didn't run away! School kept me busy. :( This topic is rather interesting!
Fighting to protect someone sounds reasonable...but, most of the time, I feel frustrated and violent (there are things that push my buttons), when I don't agree with someone and I think that person is completely unreasonable (in a serious way)...This is war. But, I must rein in my feelings and should not start acting violent. I can try to practice non-violence at a personal level. If we see from a higher level, wars seem ok, if you're fighting for what you believe in...but, then, they also lead to a lot of unwanted misery...but what if no one is ready to "really" talk? What if war isn't the permanent answer? Should we just wait for the right time to talk? Until then? Wars have no easy answers. Maybe, we just have to go with the right-wrong attitude. More precisely, how much right and how much wrong. 
French-touch, How do you think we can solve problems at the root? Poverty alleviation is part of the solution, but it isn't the whole solution. Even rich countries have many problems....heroin problem in Norway, high suicidal rates in Japan, etc. I used to think that education was the answer...but there arises the question: Who teaches whom what? How can you be sure that this is the right thing? Who decides these things? How many people can you teach? 
Starlord, if you're feeling unsafe, what about this??? "ADX, Colorado – This is the ultimate prison, literally. Since it opened in 1994, ADX is nothing but slow and inhumane torture. Although those there are the worst of the worst, human rights protestors from all over the world have targeted it. Inmates are only allowed out of their cells for 9 hours a week and barely interact with anyone. There’s hardly any sunlight and you have to do everything in your cell. If ever there was a way to destroy any semblance of hope an individual had then ADX is it!" "Tadmor Military Prison, Syria – This is one of the most brutal prisons ever. Torture, executions and untold brutality goes on within these walls. The medieval methods of torture have been well documented. Innocent and guilty alike have been dragged via a rope until they’re dead, beaten to death with pipes and chopped into pieces with an axe. However, that’s nothing compared to the massacre of June 27, 1980. Approximately 500 inmates were killed for no apparent reason by the guards and commandos. This is the worst known massacre of its kind to ever have taken place." Read more here http://www.dirty-rotten-scoundrels.co.u … the-world/     
I don't think we should go about killing people, who do the wrong thing. But, I'd say that life imprisonment is equally hard, if not harder than death sentence. I'm sure most of you must have watched The Shawshank Redemption...what if something like THAT happens? I'm not telling there should be no prisons. But the prisons, definitely, must be better. What's the whole point of imprisoning someone, if you don't even give them a chance to regret what they did, learn from their mistakes, and change themselves? Look at those cold steel bars, hard floors, boring routines and "disciplinary" rules! Who would feel regret, when you put them there? They definitely don't change a person, for good. They'll only become miserable-then, commit suicide or a worse crime on someone else. Don't you think real, life-changing prisons would help all of us? Even terrorists are humans, they shouldn't be treated as filth...maybe if we showed them compassion, they would turn back...maybe, not all of them, but some at least.  But we must think seriously about the state of prisons...
Wars don't appear to be diminishing anytime soon, practically speaking...but, it's gotta...one day! Then, maybe we'll try Maori dances and training programs. For now, let's try to keep things down...including brutality in prisons and wars.